SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER
MINISTER FINANCE
MINISTER FOR WOMEN
MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE
MINISTER FOR GOVERNMENT SERVICES

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING
MONDAY, 3 FEBRUARY 2025

SUBJECTS: Dutton’s cuts; Parliament agenda; tariffs.

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: And let’s go straight to the Finance Minister, Katy Gallagher, ahead of a very big sitting fortnight. Minister, lovely to have you in the studio.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Lovely to be here, thanks.

KARVELAS: So, on Friday, the Opposition leader delivered a big speech that pertains very much to your portfolio. He talked about wanting to cut back the public service, but he also was very specific. He talked about specific roles. Cultural diversity jobs, inclusion and diversity roles. Do you think roles like that should be cut back?

GALLAGHER: Well, we’ve spent the best part of this term trying to get the public service in much better shape than we inherited. We inherited a public service that wasn’t resourced to do the job it was doing, it was heavily reliant on contractors and consultants, and we’ve tried to rebalance that. But I think for Peter Dutton to say they’re the jobs he’s focused on when at the same time he’s saying he’s going to cut 36,000 – I can tell you I’m absolutely sure that there are not anywhere that level doing those roles.

KARVELAS: How many cultural officers might there be?

GALLAGHER: Look, to be honest, I don’t think there is – when I think about all the public servants I’ve met, there may be some who work in a particular area that have that as part of their role, but it would be nowhere near the 36,000 that are being talked about being cut. And you know, Peter Dutton can sort of try to divert and play popular politics as he chooses, but what he’s promising here is a 20 per cent cut to the public service and that means simply that people will see reduced services.

KARVELAS: Do you think there’s a need for those diversity and inclusion roles?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think there’s a need for the public service to be a leading employer. It, in times past, has set the standard for the private sector. I think there’s a lot of purpose behind the public service being a good employer, attracting talent across the board, and being a place where people want to work. And we know that labour is so mobile, it moves around a fair bit. If you want to retain good people, you’ve got to have a good, safe place to work. So, yes, look – I mean, I believe we’ve resourced the public service to the size it needs to be. Peter Dutton wants to cut it. And that will impact services.

KARVELAS: You don’t think there’s any fat, really?

GALLAGHER: Well, we’ve been shifting – there was a $20 billion bill from the consultant and contractor spend. Of those new jobs, nearly 10,000 have been straight conversions from people that were off the books, onto the books. And we’re improving standards and we’re improving services. Like, 42,000 veterans were waiting for their compensation claim to be even allocated. 42,000. And I’d say to Peter Dutton, is that what he wants to go back to – 42,000 veterans waiting in an endless queue without being processed?

KARVELAS: He’s said he doesn’t want to cut back on frontline public servants. Is there a distinction that you can see?

GALLAGHER: Well, a lot of the jobs are frontline. It’s Services Australia, it’s Defence, it’s the AFP, it’s national security agencies, it’s Veterans’ Affairs, it’s the NDIA. That’s where the jobs have gone. They’re all frontline service delivery agencies. So, again, I think he has to come up and say where these jobs are going from, because 36,000 are frontline jobs, that’s the end of it.

KARVELAS: Well, some of those would be behind the scenes, different jobs, right? Out of the 36,000?

GALLAGHER: Well, there’s policy – but the vast majority, when I look through where we’ve allocated additional resources, Services Australia, Defence, AFP, national security agencies, Veterans’ Affairs. Those are frontline service delivery agencies. And they’re areas where we had unacceptable waits, workloads that weren’t being met, visas that weren’t being processed and veterans who were waiting over a year to get any compensation after they’ve served their country overseas. It’s not acceptable. And it’s easy politics, I accept that, easy politics –

KARVELAS: Well, let’s talk about why it’s easy politics, though. Why is it easy politics? Do you think there is a backlash towards some of those cultural diversity roles?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think it’s easy to say you’re going to wind back public service jobs. I think that’s an easy one. That’s been proven in times past and he’s choosing to do that. He also chooses to say “in Canberra”, so he gives a fair kick to Canberra when we know that most of those jobs are out in the regions, they’re in the small towns, they’re in the Centrelink, Medicare, service delivery agencies. So again, that’s something he’s not telling the truth on, either. That if he does sack that many people, they’re coming from towns right across Australia.

KARVELAS: I want to talk about some of the legislation that we might see ahead of the next two weeks. Starting with childcare, why are you introducing these childcare changes? They don’t even start until next year. You weren’t planning to. Why have you brought them forward?

GALLAGHER: Well, we think this is an important commitment to give and we want the Parliament to vote on it. This was something that was brought in under the former Coalition government, that you had to be in work or volunteering or something in order to get access to childcare subsidies. And report after report after report, including the report that was given to me as Minister for Women by the Women’s Economic Equality Taskforce, recommended to remove the Activity Test and to guarantee children access to subsidised care regardless of what their parents do. Because we know what happened was that it was locking out children that would really benefit from being in childcare.

KARVELAS: So, do you want to pass all of it through or just in the lower house, just to get a sense, do you want it done and dusted?

GALLAGHER: We would be ready to do that. I mean obviously, we don’t have the numbers in the Senate, so that requires a lot more negotiation in the Senate. But I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t be able to. And that says, and, you know, this is the PM’s big push for universal childcare. That says, if you are a child under school age in Australia, you are entitled to subsidised care three days a week. That is a big change.

KARVELAS: There’s other legislation you’re looking at, too. These hate laws to deal with – that look at criminal penalties for hate speech. Is that going to be introduced this week?

GALLAGHER: That’s certainly the plan. And Mark Dreyfus is leading the work on that. Again, it’s a bill that we introduced, I think, in September last year, it’s been through a Senate committee process, so there’s some recommendations that come out of that. But you know, we’re a government that’s got a lot on our agenda and we want to get a lot done in these two sitting weeks.

KARVELAS: But the Coalition wants mandatory sentencing for terror offences. Would you meet them halfway and agree to that in exchange for their support for these laws and put these things together?

GALLAGHER: Well, I would think if you followed the Coalition over the summer, they’ve been very clear that they want to support the strengthening of laws in relation to hate speech. This is a great opportunity to do it. To actually put your hand up or to say aye when we bring sensible legislation to the Parliament. This is whether their walk matches their talk.

KARVELAS: What other legislation do you plan to get passed this fortnight? There’s the gender equality target legislation, I understand, there’s also the super changes – how do you plan to advance, what are you prioritising?

GALLAGHER: Well, we had a big end to the year last year when we got a lot of bills through.

KARVELAS: What was it, thirty-something?

GALLAGHER: Yeah. I think I spoke to you the morning of, and I was more optimistic than you, perhaps, at that point. And we were able to get some through.

KARVELAS: Hats off to you, you got a lot of legislation through. So, what will you do in the next two weeks?

GALLAGHER: Well, it was a very fast-moving situation. We’ll try the same. We want to get as much done as we can. I think people expect us to come here and work. It’s up to the Senate about what it does. On the gender equality legislation which you mentioned, it is interesting. It was a report commissioned under the former Coalition government, they agreed to the recommendations, they are now saying they don’t agree to that legislation proceeding.

KARVELAS: So, that’s to legislate targets in companies?

GALLAGHER: That’s right. For big companies who have 500 or more employees to set targets and to show progress to achieving them. So, whether it be about representation or reducing sexual harassment, for example, something I though the Parliament was united on. Yeah, just in the last week, they’ve changed their position on that. So, we’re committed to it. We think it’s sensible to continue to build an equal Australia. This isn’t about anyone getting ahead of anyone else, it’s just making sure –

KARVELAS: Funny you say that, because the Opposition leader did speak to Mark Bouris on a podcast and he talked about this issue and said that many men feel kind of upset. That you know, they feel like they’re working hard, that they’re positive towards women – I’m paraphrasing, I haven’t got the direct quote in front of me – but basically that this, kind of, gender approach means that sometimes women are getting jobs over them. What do you make of that? I’ve no doubt you’ve seen those comments.

GALLAGHER: Sure, I mean I guess my response to that is that we’re trying to build an equal Australia. It’s not one person in front of another or one gender in front of another. It’s to create an environment where people get the same opportunity. And that’s not only good for women, it’s actually shown, and many reports show this, it’s good for men as well. You know, just as there’s areas where I think men do feel a bit more under the pump, we’re trying to make sure they can share care, for example, that they can have appropriate leave with their children if they want to and also some areas in mental health and general health, where we do need targeted approaches to men to make it equal. But yes, it’s interesting that that legislation has reached a final point, and it looks like, I don’t know why, they’re –

KARVELAS: Well, is it because there’s been a shift in the culture?

GALLAGHER: Well, I guess it’s a “what are your principles”? If your principles were that you agreed with this direction, you commissioned the review, you accepted the recommendations and then on the eve of an election, you decide that you’re actually opposed to it, I’d say it’s clear you don’t really stand for much.

KARVELAS: Just on those themes, the Prime Minister also spoke to another podcast where he talked about toxic masculinity and wanting to avoid that approach. That has become a very contentious term, as you know, Minister. Would you use that language?

GALLAGHER: I hear people using it. My son has used it, as he’s navigated growing up and being a young man in Australia about things he finds confronting. So, it’s definitely a term that I think people either experience or are trying to get their heads around. But again, I always come back to basics, which is if we treat everyone properly regardless of their race, their background, their socioeconomic status, their gender, their gender identity, if we treated everyone equally, I think we’d be a much better place.

KARVELAS: Katy Gallagher, electoral legislation is the other one. There was a hint, please help me here, I heard a hint in a couple of things from the Prime Minister and Murray Watt that you might split the legislation so we get real-time disclosure. Is that something you’re considering?

GALLAGHER: Well, I don’t have anything further to say on that, PK. I know that Senator Farrell is walking around the building and talking to people, as he does so well.

KARVELAS: But are you willing to negotiate with the Crossbench, because you were trying to stitch up a deal with the Coalition – are you now moving to deal with the Crossbench?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think the approach we take is we talk to everybody. I mean, in the Senate, we can get and we’ve had to lots of times this term – because the Peter Dutton Coalition prefer to opt out of most discussions and just say no to everything – so we have the opportunity to get things through without the Opposition’s help. But I know Senator Farrell takes a very broad approach to these things and is negotiating and happy to talk to everybody.

KARVELAS: Okay, so you’ve broadened it out.

GALLAGHER: Well, I don’t know if that’s – yes, in the sense that we’re trying to get legislation through, you talk to everyone. I don’t think that’s anything new, though.

KARVELAS: I want to just end if we can on Trump, tariffs. New South Wales Premier Chris Minns has said you need to devise protective and retaliatory measures as a priority to try and protect his workers in his state. He thinks that they will be subjected to Chinese dumping, that there could be ramifications here. He seems to want some degree of urgency around this. Where is it at?

GALLAGHER: Well, obviously over the weekend we did see President Trump make those executive orders to impose tariffs on Canada, Mexico and China. In terms of our relationship with America, obviously our Trade Minister, our Foreign Minister are all engaging, as is the Prime Minister as well, and directly with President Trump post his successful election win. So, we’ve got a strong relationship with them, we’ll be continuing to advocate in our national interest.

KARVELAS: Canada’s pretty close to America and they really didn’t get a deal. Are you worried about what might happen for us?

GALLAGHER: Well look, we’ll just keep working with the new administration, we’ll advocate in our national interest, as you would expect us to do. There is a lot of work going into that and making sure that the benefits of having essentially a trade surplus with Australia is known and understood. But also the important work we’re doing on AUKUS, and including in the United States with many of our personnel. So, we will continue that, and obviously, as you would expect the economic team to do, we would absolutely be taking advice on what the further implications these tariff charges will have on our economy.

KARVELAS: Now, Minister, this may be the last sitting fortnight. You’re not going to tell me that, you’re going to tell me that only the Prime Minister knows or some form of words. You did get more than 30 pieces of legislation. What’s your aim for this fortnight?

GALLAGHER: Well, we’ve got about maybe 15 bills –

KARVELAS: 15?

GALLAGHER: Well, from my – I’m trying to go back through the program. We’ve got a lot of bills. I’d like to get as many as we can.

KARVELAS: Do you think you can do that same kind of urgency to get 15 through?

GALLAGHER: We’ll see. I’m always an optimist. I get up and go into that chamber feeling optimistic. It waxes and wanes through the week. But look, I think everybody here understands, we come here to work, we come here to pass legislation, we come here to focus on cost-of-living and how we can make people’s lives better. And you know, if the Senate brings its best game this week, we should get a lot done.

KARVELAS: Minister, many thanks for coming in.

GALLAGHER: Thank you.

ENDS