SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER
MINISTER FINANCE
MINISTER FOR WOMEN
MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE
MINISTER FOR GOVERNMENT SERVICES

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC CANBERRA
MONDAY, 31 MARCH 2025

SUBJECTS: Public Service; Energy; Cost of Living; Federal Election.

JAMES FINDLAY, HOST: Well, ACT Minister for Labor is Katy Gallagher and she's also the Minister for Government Services. Good afternoon to you.

SENATOR KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE, WOMEN, THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Hello. Thanks for having me on.

FINDLAY: No worries. There's a lot to get through, but you're also trying to debate Senator Jane Hume on this as well. Have you had much luck?

GALLAGHER: Well, I've had probably the same response that you've had, listening to your intro there. So, no response, crickets at the moment. But look, I wrote to her, one, I think we should have a debate. There's a lot of portfolio debates in this election, or we expect or we're hoping to have them, so want that. But also think if they are going to go forward with these massive cuts to Canberra-based public servants, then I figure, why not come to Canberra? Have a debate with me and explain your position. I mean, it's going to have a pretty dramatic impact on this town if they win the election and go through with those job cuts. And so, front up, explain your position and say it to the people of Canberra about why you think their jobs are worth less than any other city around Australia.

FINDLAY: There seems to be a bit of a discussion or conjecture about how many public servants that are actually in Canberra. Are you able to clarify that for us, Minister?

GALLAGHER: So, there's about 69,000, just over 69,000, public servants who work in part of the ACT, so in the federal public service. And there's about 124,000 non-ACT public servants. So, it's just over a third that are in the ACT. Now, if you listen to Senator Hume or Peter Dutton, they'll usually, when they're making their derogatory remarks about public servants, they usually say it's 41,000 Canberra-based public servant jobs will go. I've heard them also say just 40,000 jobs will go, but if you listen to them, that would obviously be 60 per cent of the jobs in the federal public service in Canberra. That would decimate this city. And so we have to prepare, I think, for that and talk about what that is and that's why she should front up or Peter Dutton should front up and look people in the eye and explain why he wants to do that.

FINDLAY: Well, Senator Hume said there just in that clip that there's a black hole in the Budget in regards to this. Has the Government accounted for the pay rises, as the accusation is from Shadow Minister Hume?

GALLAGHER: Yes, and we've gone through this at quite an enormous length in Senate Estimates. I mean, just because Senator Hume keeps saying it doesn't actually make it true. We have accounted for the wage increases. Look, they don't like wage increases. They particularly don't like wage increases for public servants. So, I can see why she's trying to make a thing about it. But we have funded the public service appropriately, that includes indexation to departments, which is where they meet their costs for EBA and things like that. So, it's been part of our approach is to try and pay people properly for the work they do and value the work they do. And these are pay rises that go to the APS right across the country.

FINDLAY: Minister Katy Gallagher is with you as Labor Senator for the ACT, here on 666 ABC Radio Canberra. I'm James Findlay. We'll move on to another bit that's in the news today. Minister, there's potential announcements for subsidies for solar batteries. It's in the Nine papers today. Is there anything you can tell us on this?

GALLAGHER: I saw that story in the paper. Look, I don't think it's any secret that we've been looking at how we can support households and how we can support households with their energy bills. We've got one in three Australian households now have solar and rooftop solar has increased by 50 per cent over the last three years. So, Australian households realise the good sense in getting renewables onto their rooftops. We're always looking at how we can help people with cost of living, but any future announcements is a matter for the PM. But it's a big difference between us and Peter Dutton. They want to go down the gas and nuclear path, build nuclear reactors all around the country and cost $600 billion for that and charge every household to fund that. We are looking at how we seize the opportunity that comes with renewable energy and that includes solar and how households can be helped with some of those cost of living pressures through their energy bills.

FINDLAY: So, might we expect some more announcements around this in the next few weeks?

GALLAGHER: Well, we've got a long time to go. Long five weeks to go, James, so there's a lot more announcements, a lot more campaigning to go, but we've made it clear, there is a big - I guess the point I'm trying to make, the broad point is, there is a big difference between Peter Dutton's nuclear reactor policy and Labor's policy, which is about how we support households to shift to renewables.

FINDLAY: You're on 666 ABC Radio Canberra. I'm James Findlay, with you is Minister for Government Services and Senator for the ACT, Katy Gallagher. If you don't mind, Senator, we'll just go to a caller. Helen has called in from Fisher. Helen, what's your question for the Minister?

HELEN FROM FISHER: Hello, James, and good afternoon, Minister Gallagher. My understanding is, and I'd just like to know if this is accurate or not, the number of permanent public servants has increased by ‘X’ thousand. My understanding is that that was done because the number of contracted, outsourced service providers was reduced and the overall cost to the public service is less for the permanent staff as opposed to the contractors. Is that accurate?

GALLAGHER: Helen, that is accurate, absolutely. I mean, there's a big difference here. If you sacked 41,000 public servants, there would be absolutely no doubt in my mind that you would have to employ a lot more - you'd have to employ people to do the work. And the way they did it last time, we've seen how this movie goes, was they employed people off the books. So, they made it look like they had a smaller public service, but the reality was they'd employed 54,000 contractors on expensive labour hire arrangements and things like that. And so, there's no doubt in my mind after looking at this closely over the last three years that it's exactly what they would have to return to. Because otherwise, systems would collapse. People would not get their payments, they wouldn't be able to deliver the work that people already are doing now, and it would be more expensive. We saved a lot of money, converting people from labour hiring to permanent public servant jobs.

HELEN: Yes, yes. That was my understanding. And I don't understand why they keep talking about reducing the public service, because the amount of work doesn't go away.

GALLAGHER: No, in fact, it's increased - I mean, by population, proportionately, the public service is smaller now than it was in 2006, and it's got many more functions. Like, the NDIS didn't exist back in 2006, the National Disability and Insurance Scheme. We live in a much more precarious global environment. So, things like AUKUS, the submarine agency didn't exist. There's a whole range of functions that we've accumulated or prioritised, and that work needs to get done.

FINDLAY: Thanks for the call, Helen.

HELEN: Thanks very much. Yes, thank you.

FINDLAY: No worries. Helen in Fisher there. You're on 666 ABC Radio Canberra. I'm James Findlay. Getting some of your texts here. With you of course is the Senator for the ACT, Katy Gallagher, 0467 922 666. One of you says, can someone help me understand how public service job cuts save the country money when these workers whose jobs are cut then appear to come back to the same departments as private contractors because the work doesn't go away? Do we have any data on this?

GALLAGHER: Well, we know that when we - sorry, were you handing to me then?

FINDLAY: Yeah, I can hand to you.

GALLAGHER: So, we know that when we measured external labour - the cost of those 54,000 external workers, essentially, some of those labour hire consultants, contractors - that the total cost of that was in the order of $20 billion. And so, you can put a cost on that. And I think that texter is right. If you actually do a cost comparison, there is no evidence to say that you make savings from cutting public servant jobs, because the work still needs to be done. And the experience was it was about 20 to 30 per cent, I think when it came to labour hire, more expensive to have labour hire arrangements than a permanent public service role. So, we can kind of get the costs involved then, and I think I'd be very, very surprised if there was any savings from it.

FINDLAY: Well, thanks for your time this afternoon, Minister. It's as you said, it's week one of a five-week election campaign, so no doubt we'll meet again and let us know how you go with that debate invite.

GALLAGHER: Will do.

FINDLAY: And I think there'd be a certain Breakfast presenter, I think, that would be very keen on moderating that.

GALLAGHER: Well, I'd like a big town hall. I think Canberrans deserve the same kind of response that you'd get from any other town in Australia where you're talking about job cuts of this size. I mean, people should front up and look people in the eye and explain what they want to do, not just hide away and say, you're too busy to come on. I've noticed they're not too busy to do a whole range of other shows today, so.

FINDLAY: Yep, don't worry. I've noticed that as well. Thank you, Senator, for your time.

GALLAGHER: Okay, thank you. Bye.

ENDS