SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER
MINISTER FINANCE
MINISTER FOR WOMEN
MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
DOORSTOP
CANBERRA
THURSDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2024

SUBJECTS: Coalition commitment to cut APS jobs; Digital Transformation Agency; APS census results; Australian Government Consulting; ACT Senate election.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: I’ve given a long speech. I’m happy to just go to questions.

JOURNALIST: Minister, some people will look at your message today as you running a scare campaign about the Coalition cutting jobs. How do you respond to that?

GALLAGHER: Well, I tried to be factual today. I used quotes from David Littleproud and from Angus Taylor, but there are more quotes that I didn't use from Senator Hume and Peter Dutton himself. So, you know, I think it would probably be negligent of me not to raise it and I don't know how you talk about public sector reform and looking at what you do next when there is this big shadow of a threat to cut 36,000 jobs from the public service. So, I tried to navigate that. It's not scaremongering at all. It's simply stating the facts.

JOURNALIST: Obviously, the audience here is pretty familiar with how important public service jobs are in Canberra, but obviously in general. My question to you is how do you plan to fight off the Opposition's election attacks which are likely just going to be a simple line – billions more in spending, thousands more public servants – and what are they getting out of it? So how are you going to convince people outside of Canberra – say, Western Australia and Queensland – in simple terms of the importance of having more public servants?

GALLAGHER: It's about making public servants real for people. And you know, I tried to do that in my speech. It's about your engagement with Medicare, the Passport Office, Centrelink, Veterans Affairs. It's explaining the connection between public servants and service standards and also understanding that two thirds of the jobs are outside Canberra. So, if you cut 36,000 jobs, we would expect – based on how the public service is carved up across Australia – that would be about 23,000 jobs from outside Canberra, and they are in big regional centres and capital cities. And I think we need to localise that message, and we need to explain it. That's our job. And I agree. Like I said in my remarks, it's easier to run a campaign against the public service than it is to defend the public service. But defending the public service is the right thing to do and is in the national interest. And you know, you can't cut 36,000 jobs and not affect the standards of service delivery that are delivered to all Australians. You just can't do it. And I think the Opposition should be called on that. You know, easy to say, but what are they going to do when veterans start waiting nearly nine months or longer than a year to get their compensation claim?

JOURNALIST: Minister, you referred to the Coalition's plans to cut public service jobs as lazy and arrogant. Does it concern you, looking at what happened in America with the Department of so-called Government Efficiency and also this phenomenon of anti-woke sentiment in political campaigning discourse, that it might detract from genuine, serious conversations about what it takes to be a good government?

GALLAGHER: Well, I guess it's similar to my answer to the previous question. It's easier to run a campaign against public servants, and the work they do, than it is to protect them. But the right thing to do is to stand up for the public service. You know, I think we have to be arguing about efficiency and effectiveness of those services. You know, it's not a blank cheque. This is about getting the right amount of people in place to do the work that we're asking them to do. And I think by linking jobs to actually those outcomes that we're seeing, you know, faster processing times in environmental approvals – veterans’ is a huge change, an absolutely massive change, and we're seeing that coming through the Budget, with much more investment having to be placed into Veterans’ Affairs, because more people are getting the pensions they deserve for serving the country. So yeah, I mean, I'm up for the challenge, I guess is what I was saying today. It is hard, but it's an important battle to be in the contest of.

JOURNALIST: Minister, you talked also previously about changing the way the government does procurement, particularly in technology. Recent stats from the DTA show that of the 111 projects in the Digital Investment Overview, only 21 were aligned with the Australian Government Architecture. Are you concerned that departments aren't taking up the assurance factors that the DTA has? And are there particular departments that are of concern?

GALLAGHER: So, yes, I want to see continued improvement in the engagement between agencies and the DTA. We have – that overview document is provided as part of our budget considerations and we have made it a requirement that agencies engage with the DTA. And there is more to do there, I think, to get better compliance and work with the DTA in earlier stages of the project. So, we are thinking of further enhancements that can be made. And yes, there are departments that engage and respond better than others. You see that right across the public service. We know who they are, and we are working with them.

JOURNALIST: Minister, just another question on the DTA. It's preparing to commence a strategic review on its whole-of-government digital sourcing arrangements. Did you direct the agency to do this? And would you like to see local tech companies land similar whole-of-government arrangements?

GALLAGHER: I didn't direct the DTA, but I've certainly had a number of discussions with them. Obviously, the local tech sector are often providing feedback that they don't think that government procurement offers them a level playing field or equal opportunity to those contracts. And so, this is something that the DTA and I have been talking about. I think this review is important. You know, I imagine we would release that review when it comes out so that we can be upfront about what it finds. And I think we need to be able to accommodate – just because it's always been done this way, doesn't mean it should always be done that way, I think, in procurement. And particularly in technology, which is changing so rapidly, we have to look at opportunities that come from engaging more often with smaller local providers, if that's possible. I've been a big supporter of using government procurement as a tool to drive other outcomes, whether it's been supporting local companies, you know, the social side of procurement. And so, definitely with the DTA and with that review, we would be looking to what opportunities exist. I think a lot of the arrangements and platforms that are used across government have happened over time. You know, often over many, many years, sometimes decades, and it's appropriate we have a look at whether that's still fit-for-purpose.

JOURNALIST: Minister, the State of the Service Report revealed a very high number of Code of Conduct breaches. Is that something we need to be worried about, or is that just a sign that the reform is working?

GALLAGHER: Well, yeah. I mean, I think the Code – I saw those numbers, and they don't concern me on their own. I think we have put a lot of work in and we've had quite a number of, you know, bigger investigations over the last 12 months, particularly into Robodebt, where a number of Code of Conduct inquiries were done. You know, the Code of Conduct process is there for a reason and it should be used, and we shouldn’t pretend that it's going to be zero. There are different reasons why people get referred. And you know to be honest, I think we're going to see more of it. Particularly as the integrity framework around the public service has been developed and changing, including with the National Anti-Corruption Commission. I think, my sense, post-Robodebt – and you know, I wasn't in government at the time when that all happened – but I sense that a combination of the Robodebt Royal Commission, the new National Anti-Corruption Commission, some of the integrity work that we've been doing, that there is, you know, more willingness to report concerns and have them dealt with, which I think is actually a good thing.

JOURNALIST: You've implemented a lot of transparency measures for the APS, things like publishing the census results. But some of the most effective transparency measures for federal governments are things like publishing ministerial diaries and releasing cabinet submissions at a closer date after they're done and dusted. So, is that something you would support for your government?

GALLAGHER: Look, in a general sense. I mean, those issues are really – I mean, we have requirements around cabinet submissions and their date of release – but other issues remain you know, really a matter for the Prime Minister. I've always been a big supporter of open government. I think sharing information helps people understand what you're doing and also changes behaviour internally in the APS when they think that that information is going to be public and shared. So, that's my starting point. But I also accept that there are constraints on that, or there should be constraints on that, that allow the good functioning of government to occur. And that, you know, that covers a range of areas. So, there's a range of material that we don't release, and that's usually for very good reasons. But I guess, at a general level, I'm a big supporter of open government.

JOURNALIST: The Census results show that the Australian Submarine Agency ranked second last in wellbeing for staff. Of the respondents, 70 per cent said they were significantly or slightly overworked. It's understood Richard Marles has also raised concerns about its operations and priorities. Do you think this – this is obviously an agency that only opened its doors in July – are you concerned about what's happening at that agency, which is so core to Australia's national security and defence priorities? And would you consider launching a review into what's happening there, given the poor outcomes in the census?

GALLAGHER: Well, the fact that we publish the census is part of that transparency and accountability, and so everyone can see what's happening in every agency, in every department. And that's an important part of continuing to improve culture. And it does mean that when you see, you know, areas where there are issues or problems raised, that it's very clear about the fact that people need to respond to that. And I know certainly the Deputy Prime Minister is doing that in relation to ASA. And again, I don't think it's, you know, there are ways to deal with that, including the fact it's a new agency. There's a lot of work going on with AUKUS, it sort of sits within a bigger portfolio that they have the resources and capability to deal with that. But yeah, we want to see improvements right across the board. And I would say the census and publishing the census, not allowing it to be discretionary, is a part of keeping us accountable, secretaries accountable, and making sure that departments are responding to those results when they see them.

JOURNALIST: And just on the review?

GALLAGHER: Look, that's a matter really, for the Deputy Prime Minister. I know he's aware of, obviously, the results through the census and is working with Defence, but I would leave that to him.

JOURNALIST: Public sector or service independence was something you underscored particularly in your speech. It goes to the issue of whether there's a risk of the Royal Commission into Robodebt problems re-emerging. What do you think is at risk if we stop the APS Reform agenda after the next election and revert back to what was before. Are we at risk of seeing another Robodebt?

GALLAGHER: I mean, I would say yes. I mean, this is – well, I guess I get frustrated by this view that you can just slash, that it's just wasteful spending, slash 36,000 jobs and everything will continue on. That simply won't happen. We know that. We've seen that movie before. And we saw, particularly when I came to government, it was worse than I had thought from Opposition. It was not only under-resourcing. It was about some of the fracturing of the structure of the APS. The APSC, for example, that should be at the centre of the public service, had been completely sidelined from setting standards and having a role in the overall culture and function of the APS. And that's the result of what will happen if you cut the public service by 20 per cent. You will see more of that, and there's no doubt that the lack of independence and the control of executive government had a lot to do with how long Robodebt went on for. It was a thirst for savings to run a fiscal strategy that actually caused, in some instances, the death of innocent Australians. I mean, it is the most extraordinary public administration failure. And I would hope we have never go back there. I think the APS is less likely to go as far back as that. But if you cut 20 per cent of the APS’ resourcing, there will be failures of systems. I have no doubt about it.

JOURNALIST: Minister, you mentioned Australian Government [Consulting] in your speech, the $3.6 million, I think it was, in spending there or deferred external spending. Do you expect that agency to be cost-neutral, in the sense that you will redirect the spending that would have been spent elsewhere and spend it within the APS?

GALLAGHER: We would expect – so, it is interesting – obviously, that is early days for that entity. I had a meeting with them this week to talk about how it's going and what they're seeing. I mean, ultimately, we would like that entity to not be budget funded, but to be funded through the work that it does. So, through basically a user-pays arrangement. But at the same time, we're hopeful that we're convincing agencies that if they are using the skills and expertise and learning from that, from that unit, that they are actually saving money as well by developing up their own internal capability. So, I'm pretty optimistic on how that Australian Government Consulting is working. You know, there's more to do and there's more to see. There's some departments that are working really closely with it, as I outlined in my remarks, and the feedback from them has been very positive. And now we're in a point where we've got to try and recruit to match some of the work that they're being asked to do, which, again, I think is a good sign. But it's early days. We'd like it to be user-pays, and as part of that, not only paying for it, but also driving some savings within the departments that are using it.

JOURNALIST: Minister, the State of the Service report indicated that 80 per cent of agencies have shortfalls in digital and data skills. Can you give sort of a summary of how you think we've got to that point, and what's currently being done to mitigate that shortfall?

GALLAGHER: Yeah, well, I think it goes back to a story of underinvestment and a failure to forward plan. And so again, when we came to government, there were big areas of talent shortfall. And you can't imagine what the public service is going to be like in terms of, even in five years, of some of the ways that it's going to be doing its work because of the nature of the disruption and change that we're seeing right now. And so, we've been putting in place a number of programs through traineeships in this area to try and get people from all over the country and younger people and people who may not have seen themselves in the role in public service, coming in and seeing what public service does. We've got the strategy I referred to in my remarks that are coming out, I think next year, which is really trying to professionalise a stream of workers. We've got, you know, professionalisation in areas like legal already, that have existed for some time. And I know, because of the nature of the work that we're already seeing, that we're going to have to have a much better capability in that area, and it's got to be across the public service, and we really need to build them up as a profession. And part of what I also have been talking about in terms of IR – so, wages, conditions, flexibility, ability to move in and out, work for the private sector and come to the public sector – is part of that as well. Because we know that's what, you know, younger generations are looking for. They're not looking for the same job for 30 years. They're looking for different and interesting work. And then that links to Australian Government Consulting. You know, it's all about keeping some of the interesting bits and making sure that we've got the employment arrangements in place, and the career opportunities that build up a profession and allow you to move through that profession across departments, is all part of the solution there.

JOURNALIST: Minister, you have a huge portfolio of ministerial responsibilities. You've got an Assistant Public Service Minister who helps carry that load. You've given him a lot of praise today. Any discussions with the PM about post-election, handing over the ministry entirely to him, or are you going to protect it?

GALLAGHER: Well, no, I've got enough on my plate day-to-day, I haven’t looked beyond that. I mean, it's a privilege to serve as Minister for the Public Service. I love it, and it's important for my hometown, just being a bit parochial for a moment. This is the big employer in my hometown. It says, what happens here matters, and a lot of private sector businesses hang off the success of Canberra being the seat of government and the home of public service. So, there’s some very nice synergies for me.

JOURNALIST: Just one that Charles has sent through, if that’s alright? A Senate committee has heard we have low gas storage levels on the East Coast. Should we be exploring more gas options before next winter?

GALLAGHER: I don't know where that's come from this morning, but I know that, you know, a lot of work has gone in from Chris Bowen, in a sense, to make sure that we've got the right energy supply, particularly through those peak periods in winter and summer. And gas has an important role to play there and will continue to have. So, for those that demonise gas, I think, when we look at how we transition from where we are now to a net zero economy, gas has an important role to play.

JOURNALIST: Can I just ask about, I guess, the next election. How worried are you about holding onto your seat in the Senate at the next election, with obviously, David Pocock looking to be re-elected, the Liberals are hoping to gain their foothold back in Canberra, potentially other independents. What does it look like for you?

GALLAGHER: Well, in my time in politics, I've only ever been in a marginal seat contest. And the Senate race in the ACT is a marginal seat contest now. And I think, personally, I think David Pocock will be elected first, and then I think it's a race between Labor for the second seat. I think that's how it will play out. And so, that means we've got to put a lot of effort in. We're not going to have as much money as Senator Pocock. Obviously, he had nearly $2 million last time to run his campaign. I expect his donors will run a similar size campaign for him again. We won't have that money. We don't – in my time in politics, I've never seen that sort of money in Canberra. And so, I'm going to have to campaign on my record and my commitment to this town. Thanks everyone.